Michele Davis  00:03

You are listening to the Created For Podcast.

We believe that everyone was created to make a unique impact in the world.

Created For is a podcast to explore ideas around purpose, calling and discovering how God is inviting you to influence the world in your own way, right now.

I’m your host, Michele Davis. So this week, I get to sit down with Drew Hyun, who’s the founder and pastor of Hope Church Midtown in New York City, and a few other things that you can read about in his bio. But the real reason you need to listen today is because Drew gets honest about something that people, in my opinion, are not talking enough about. And that is, how tempting it is to find our identity in our work, our activities or our ministry, instead of finding our identity in Christ. Which in case you’re wondering, that becomes a big problem.

Well, Drew, welcome to the Created For Podcast.

Drew Hyun  01:10

Yes, very excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Michele Davis  01:13

Of course, I’m excited for you to be here too. Well, I was already excited just to interview you because I really loved what you shared at our live event back in early March. And then, also, we just now realized we like are the same age could have actually maybe met if, like, if one of us had made one different decision.

Drew Hyun  01:36

Yes.

Michele Davis  01:38

I think that’s really funny. So we were just talking about how you were involved in Cru as a student at Berkeley?

Drew Hyun  01:46

Yes, exactly.

Michele Davis  01:49

Okay, I’m curious. I don’t know this… we didn’t talk about this part. So going to Berkeley. Were you looking for Christian community? Or how did you get connected there?

Drew Hyun  02:02

So, you know, I had grown up in an immigrant church context. But I mean, by the time I was a freshman in college, I was really searching for whether I really believe this or not.

Michele Davis  02:10

Yes.

Drew Hyun  02:12

And so I took religious studies classes, a class on the Bible as literature. And I was just on this learning quest, and during that time, I was also visiting different Christian campus ministries. And I landed at Cru, and I loved the people there. I love the heartbeat of just engagement with people. So after, I remember my first semester feeling like this real sense that I was all in that I really believed in the Christian message. So I was jumping right in. And then I got really involved at Cru, ended up going on two different Summer Projects and Urban Immersion a couple of times as well and was going to Christmas conferences.

Michele Davis  02:59

And I’m doing almost the exact same searching for God, signing up for all the religious groups. But in Indiana.

Drew Hyun  03:12

Yes. Wow. We totally could have been friends.

Michele Davis  03:17

I know, I like to joke, I was so searching for God. I probably could have been scooped up by a cult because I literally filled out everything. “Somebody call me!” is how I was.

Drew Hyun  03:27

Yes, that’s so cool.

Michele Davis  03:31

Yes, I’m thankful too for what Cru then represented in my life at that season, but you had said a few minutes ago that it was really Cru that got you to move across the country. Can we just pause for a second: you grew up in beautiful California?

Drew Hyun  03:49

Yes.

Michele Davis  03:49

It’s beautiful. And now you live in exciting New York city. It’s exciting. But very different.

Drew Hyun  03:58

Yes. Very different. So I did a summer project and fell in love with New York. And actually, I had no dreams of moving here. You know, I love the West Coast. I grew up in Los Angeles, went to University of Berkeley. Then had an opportunity, actually, we had helped start a college, like, church ministry there and that church had invited me to the college pastor.  I got a scholarship to go to Israel as well. So I was considering three things, it was:  scholarship to Israel. The other was becoming a college pastor at the church that we helped start while we were in college.

And, lastly, was moving to New York and taking an unpaid internship where I would raise support at this Inner City Church in the middle of Queens called New Life Fellowship.

And it really made no kind of worldly sense in terms of like, why would I do that? It made no sense. And I just had this real distinct feel that New York was calling me here. And so I moved to New York City in September 5, 2001, right before 9/11. Unbelievable to think about, and ended up interning at that church, at New Life Fellowship, ended up staying at that church for 10 years. And so kind of the rest is history. And now I’ve lived in New York for 21 years now, and this is definitely home.

Most Californians definitely do move back. But we have just really found a home here. And we love it here and feel deeply committed to the city and the work that’s happening here as well.

Michele Davis  05:36

I think that it sounds so much like the Spirit at work in your life. I think a lot of people move back to California because it does, it’s beautiful, it’s sunny; like, why wouldn’t you pick that if everything else was even? But you know, it sounds like the Lord really moved in your life and connected you with this church. And New Life Church is a church that we’re pretty familiar with here on the podcast because we’ve interviewed the current pastor of New Life, Rich Villodas, a couple times, so you guys are like, you know each other.

Drew Hyun  06:11

Yes, Rich is a great friend, love him to death. So we worked together for three years, while he had just come to New Life, and then I was… After those three years, I ended up leaving New Life.

Michele Davis  06:25

Tell me more about that. I’m curious, because you were at this church. And you started another church?

Drew Hyun  06:32

Yes. So… Gosh. It’s a little bit of a longer story, but like 2010… You know, I had been on the staff for 10 years. And in many ways, it was the dream church. I mean, you’ve probably heard from Rich about the context. This International Church that’s working with the poor, has a very beautiful, rich, nuanced engagement with theology and emotional health and discipleship and meaningful change. It’s a place that really stands for the gospel and how it relates to justice. So it’s got all these great themes that really converge into, I think, a very prophetic witness in the world today. And so the senior pastor Pete Scazzero, he was talking to both Rich and I about transition.

Drew Hyun  07:21

And so, privately, the plan was for Rich and I to actually lead the church together, this was the plan. In 2010, I got through a pretty significant season of depression. And during that time, I was really restless, I was meeting with different spiritual directors and counselors, wrestling through what my calling was, and all of this was intersecting with my call at New Life, because again, it was a church and a ministry that I absolutely loved. And through that discernment, there were two things that really came up time and time again. Whenever I thought about leaving, there were two great fears.

The first fear, I remember was, if I leave this church, I’ll be a nobody. It’s embarrassing to say, but as a pastor, I just realized that prestige was a big part of, like, I felt like I built my resume for 10 years, you know, I invested my life. Here was this amazing opportunity, this incredible church, with Pete, who’s just been an incredible father figure, and pastor, and I just realized that, prestige was one of the reasons that I was staying.

And the second thing that was keeping me there was, I remember waking up my wife in the middle of night, because again … because I was depressed, I had a hard time sleeping. And I remember waking her up in the middle of one night. And I said to her… (and please, husbands, don’t ever say this to your wives), especially in the middle of night … but I woke her up and I said, “You know, if you had a more lucrative job, I wouldn’t be stuck here.” She just thought and she’s like, “First of all, don’t ever speak to me that way.” And then she said, “Do you really believe that that’s who God is and what He’s like? That He’s limited by money? And then she goes, “Go back to sleep.” And then I cried, you know.

Michele Davis  09:23

Sure.

Drew Hyun  09:24

But it dawned on me like, what else was keeping me there was money. And it’s not like I was making a lucrative amount of money at New Life. It was like the salary of an inner city church in New York. And so I realized that prestige and money were the things that were keeping me there. And so once I realized that those were the reasons why I was staying at New Life, I knew it was time to leave because — I don’t know if you know this — but money and prestige are really bad reasons to be a pastor.

Michele Davis  09:57

Yes, they are. I hate that we have to say that out loud. But [laughter]

Drew Hyun  10:02

So I resigned, and it was a shock to everyone. Pete was shocked and really deeply hurt. Rich was shocked and deeply hurt. And, you know, we weren’t very public about what was happening behind the scenes because we couldn’t talk about the transition just then. But those were really hard days. And what was really interesting … so following that, you know, now all of a sudden, here was, I feel like I’m making this faith step, and I got more depressed. You know, it felt like, “God, I am walking obediently trying to follow you.” And all of a sudden that I went into a deeper pit. I didn’t realize unemployment.

You know, it was the first season of unemployment for me. And, you know, I used to think that unemployment was deeply about money, and whether we’re going to have enough, which, of course, for my immigrant background is definitely … they’re like, will we ever have enough? … But what happened was, I didn’t realize how much unemployment has to do with my sense of identity. And how lost I felt all of a sudden because now all of a sudden people were asking me like, “Hey, what do you do?” And I’m like, “I’m a Pastor”, and they are like, “Where?” And I’m like, “Why do you need to know where, why can you just like … like there was this defensiveness to me and I realized that all the things that I was holding on to for my sense of significance and self worth. And it’s weird talking about this as a pastor, because again, we preach on the gospel and God’s goodness, His love, and yet, all of a sudden, here I was now, feeling empty handed.

And I remember there’s this quote by Tim Keller, where he says; “You don’t know Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you have.”

And looking back, it was one of the hardest seasons of my life, but it was one of the best seasons, because in many ways, I needed to be stripped of all those … the trappings of the things that I think bring me significance … you know, my job, my title, and even as a vocational minister, you know, as a pastor, I realized like, I was hanging my hat on the fact that I could say that I’m a pastor, and then I’m a pastor at New Life. And when all of that was stripped away, it was like, “Do I still really believe the gospel? Do I still really believe that?” God is enough, that His love is real, and that it’s not based on my performance, my resume or my LinkedIn profile, or whatever else it might be. But it’s really based on His grace, and His goodness, to me and for me.

Drew Hyun  12:36

So that’s what led me down a path of wrestling through what was next and then, you know, it’s a longer story to get into kind of like, what ended up happening for us to end up starting a church. And so what’s crazy now is that Rich, Pete and I, we’re like, dear friends, we communicate very frequently and do a lot of projects together and just have a great relationship. So it’s been an amazing story to see my leaving. And what’s happened with Rich and Pete and kind of how we’re all dear friends, who are all great friends and rooting for each other and communicate quite frequently together.

Michele Davis  13:17

I am wondering, in that time, did it cross your mind about, “What if I’m not a pastor anymore? Do I have to completely pivot?” And if you did wrestle with that, what was that like for you?

Drew Hyun  13:36

Yes, I think everything was on the table. Because again, it felt like God was dismantling all the false perceptions I had about myself, and where I found worth, you know. And what was so insidious about this, about my own vocation into vocational ministry, was that even in a vocational ministry, as a professional clergy person, like I had, I created this sense of self and worth, that was really built up on what I did and how I performed. And it wasn’t on just being a son who’s loved by a good dad. And I think that entire process then … it demonstrated to me was, like, all of that just needed to be kind of ripped apart.

I remember reading in Exodus 32 to 34. You know, there’s that whole passage where Moses has this exchange with God. And one of the things that happens is he says, “If your presence is not go up from here, do not send us,” you know, and Moses is basically saying, “God more than anything else, I just want your presence. I will leave everything and anything just to follow your presence wherever your presence goes.” And I remember reading that passage while I was in that season of depression and saying to God, “God, I just want to go wherever your presence takes me. And if it’s in these different vocations, that’s where I want to go. If it’s to another place in the world, that’s where I’ll go.” Because during that time, I was so myopic in my own, kind of, view of myself, I had been so committed to this vision, and the vision was New York City, the vision was New Life, vision was the pastor of this church, and it was like, God was like, you know, like, what if all of that was stripped away? Would you go wherever I am willing to take you where I want to take you? And for me, it was kind of this gut check moment of again, like do I really believe that He is who He says He is. That He’s a God whose favor and kindness is not based on my performance and what I do or what I’ve achieved for these past 10 years. And do I believe that more than anything, more than a title and more than an earning potential that God has enough.

So I think all of those kind of dreams and ambitions were really being confronted, you know, another way of calling it is idols. A lot of these idols were being confronted with like, “Is God enough? And is Jesus, and who he is, and what he’s done. And in my relationship with him. Is that enough?” Yes, so all of that was on the table.

Michele Davis  16:32

It seems like the idols are not only being confronted but revealed in some surprising places. I don’t know if most people think that. I mean, I don’t know, to think about ministry being something we idolize because ministry is like, good. It’s what we’re supposed to do. We’re supposed to serve people for God, how can that be an idol? But obviously, from what you’re describing, and I would say too in my experience, it can be. So what was that for you to realize that you were having some idealization of something that was also like a spiritual calling thing?

Drew Hyun  17:17

Yes, I mean, it was incredibly disorienting. Because I didn’t realize it. And in someone, that’s the insidious thing about things that are good things that become ultimate things. I mean, there’s some things in the world, the world can easily look at and say, Oh, yeah, like, if I’m addicted to substance abuse, or to drugs or alcohol … in many ways, these things are accentuated in society as being like, these are bad addictions. Yes. But the good things that have become addictions, in my case, my drive and vocational ministry, and my addiction to being really good at school, my addiction to be well known. All of these things can be good things, but when they become ultimate things … but the problem with idolizing my own spiritual vocation, because I realized that got a lot of applause from people, right? “Wow, you’re a pastor, God must be so pleased with you.”

In some ways, it’s more insidious, because I’m not even aware of how my idol had become this pursuit of God, instead of God Himself. And so when that was stripped away, it was really like a gut check moment of like, is Jesus enough? And is the love of Him enough? Is his presence more than anything else? And Drew, would you be willing to walk away from all the ambitions that had — you felt like you had built up over 10 years. Because, you know, in a very worldly way … I say worldly and forgive me, but in a way, I built up a resume for 10 years. And I felt like I was in the peak of cashing in on that resume, it was kind of like, when all of that was taken away, even if it was a good thing, and that’s why I say looking back is one of the best things that happened to me, because in many ways, I needed to be stripped of all those things, the trappings that were driving me, the pride that had begun to envelop my own sense of self and self worth. And it was one of the most humbling times, one of the richest times of growth, a spiritual growth for me.

Michele Davis  19:47

It kind of sounds like an Abraham and Isaac experience where God called you to lay being a pastor and in vocational ministry on the altar. And then he gave it back to you, because you are a pastor right now, like you did start a church and so … but yes, it’s that kind of profound moment of like, “Am I willing to do anything, even give up something that was promised and good, and all of those sorts of things.” I’m curious, how has that experience impacted you then? How are you Pastor now and how did you start this church? And how do you keep those lessons learned on the forefront, as you are leading out in this new space?

Drew Hyun  20:38

Yes. That’s a great question. Because again, I remember, when I was in my 20s, I met my therapist, we remember he said to me, he said, “I know, this is not in the Scriptures or anything.” But he said, “This theme emerges throughout the Scriptures.” But he said to me, he said, “You know, after the age of 21, the only spiritual lessons one can learn comes through suffering and failure. And he was saying, it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t give blessing and acceleration and movement. And up into the right, we said that spiritual lessons in adulthood are only learned through suffering and failure. And what’s been interesting for me is, I found that to be true, like, the places of deepest formation for me, have not come when things are going well or when the church is flourishing, and when there’s all you know, the publicity of what might happen as a church movement, and as it grows, and things like that, and our church has expanded in different roles. But it really is the moments of desolation, the moments when my wife is having a miscarriage, when we’re wrestling with anxiety over our children, when we’re really pained, and going through conflict on our church staff teams, and when the pandemic hits and 50% of our congregation has left the city and giving is down whatever X amount of percentage, and when it feels like, you know, those are the moments when we get shaped the most.

Now, I wish that wasn’t the case. You know, there’s a part of me that’s like, oh, man! I wish … I wish I could learn so much when growth and blessing and abundance and prosperity. But, I mean, the reality is, and we see this throughout Scriptures, and Book of James, and all the letters that are written to people, you know, the church that’s growing, that’s generally being persecuted or a religious minority. And so, I think, in many ways, I think that perspective for me … so following that time, I think there’s been a continual desire for me to not pursue suffering and failure, but to continue to do the contemplative work of wrestling with my own heart, and the [unintelligible] kind of flood my heart. You know, there’s that fine line between selfish ambition and holy ambition. And I think it takes a deep life of prayer, of reflection, and of repentance. And hopefully, me as a pastor, we as a church, our family of churches, and the networks that we’ve helped start. Hopefully, there’s a humility of brokenness. One of the practices, for instance, that happens regularly for me is actually we’re going on sabbatical this summer. And our family actually takes a three-month sabbatical every three years. You know, some people are a little shocked by that. That’s like a very generous sabbatical package. And I’m like, well, that’s how emotionally unhealthy I am… [laughter]

Michele Davis  23:51

And it’s like, it’s part of your deeper, well developed, I’m glad, go do it, keep going.

Drew Hyun  23:59

Absolutely. And one of the things that’s been so helpful for me is that three months’ sabbatical for me not only is it replenishing and restful for us, and the rhythm of Sabbath keeping is one that has changed my life incredibly, but it also is the discipline of me walking away, kind of like I walk away from New Life, me walking away and saying, “God, I just want to keep things current with you.” And in many ways, after three years, inevitably, what happens is I develop this kind of, like, my identity shaped with my accomplishments, become so intertwined. And in many ways, very regularly I need to do this, but every three years, there’s like a drastic tearing apart of those things.

For me to walk away. And most pastors who go on sabbatical, they’ll tell you this … or I believe they will … The first couple of weeks are really difficult and the first month is really difficult because there’s all this anxiety; “Is the church going to be okay? Is everything going to be okay without me? Oh, but so much centers around me and what if newcomers that come to the church, they don’t realize they don’t get to hear me preach and all that stuff.” And so much of that ego, I realized every time I go on sabbatical just needs to be stripped away from my sense of control, my sense of ego. And in many ways, it’s a helpful discipline for me to step away. And to say, God, this is your church, and this is your movement. And hopefully, also, what it forces me to do, is it forces me to develop other people to be invested in, discipling others, to say, like, you know, every three years, it’s going to be like I’ve died.

Michele Davis  25:51

So get ready.

Drew Hyun  25:52

Yes, get ready. And here is the ways that you can go ahead and do what you want with the church and whatever ministry and with whatever my life can be.

Michele Davis  26:03

You know, I can’t help but sit here and think about all these amazing things that God has taught you about. You know, not pursuing that prestige, and celebrity and even choosing against it in so many places in your journey, right? But then what I’m thinking of is recently you were one of our speakers at our live event, which was in early March, and we’re going to link in the show notes, Drew’s specific nine-minute talk, and link to other replay things, but your video had such an impact on so many … Just even on our design team for the conference, like, I think we all watched it multiple times in tears because it was really moving what you were talking about. And when I was watching the conference with my friends, they were … I mean, tears aren’t the only measure of a great talk.But you know, it moved to a great emotion. And even just an anecdote, I heard one person, it was so meaningful for him, he watched it 12 times in the first week because it meant so much to him what you shared. In that talk you shared about the God who sees us, and you were open about even your backstory, as growing up as a child, you know, a child of immigrants and kind of that wrestling with, “Who are you and how you engage in your community?” I want you to just say you Drew like, even though you’re making these specific choices to not be in a place of prestige, you are still being used by the Lord for great influence. I’m really thankful for that. I really loved your talk and what you had to share.

Drew Hyun  28:05

Thanks. No, I’m glad. I’m really glad that it was meaningful and helpful for folks. And I know, it’s something that I long for every day to know that I’m seen and noticed. And there’s so beautiful about God in his pursuit. And in the Scriptures like, this is who God is, He’s a God who sees us and notices us. So yes.

Michele Davis  28:32

Yes, that touches something really core, I think, with all people that desire to be seen and known. I’m curious too to hear more about your unique experience with that, some of the things that you talked about that night about what it was like to grow up in America as an immigrant. Give us a little picture of what that was like. That would have been the 80s. Yes, tell me more about that.

Drew Hyun  29:02

Yes. I mean, I think growing up, so I was born to Korean-American parents, Korean immigrants in Los Angeles. And, you know, I think a common experience for Asian Americans is the feeling of being perpetual foreigners, never fully American, and, I remember one time in New York, my friend from Latvia had never been to New York. And he had visited New York. You know, he’s from Latvia but I remember everyone treated him like he was from New York and me as if I was a foreigner. We’d have these little like, where the bill would come, who people would ask for directions and they’d ask and I remember him as a Latvian friend, he would say Drew, people think that I’m the American and you’re … and I think that experience just a little bit of that encapsulates what it’s like to be an Asian American. I think for me growing up then in that kind of environment, where our family was an extreme minority in the neighborhood that we grew up in, the racial taunts, the feeling of being ostracized, the feeling of never being good enough or accepted. And knowing the pain of that, and wondering whether anyone truly understands that.

I think that longing of being misunderstood, the longing of not being known, of being just kind of a faceless, marginalized person. I think in many ways, growing up with that belief about myself. That I don’t matter. That I’m not seen.

So I think my story, as it relates to issues of identity, issues of just kind of feeling lost and misplaced, like there’s no real place where I fully fit in, you know, I think that’s kind of where the story of like this longing for being noticed and known comes from. And that’s what I love about Jesus is that, we see it most closely in his healings. He heals people with such care and tenderness and uniqueness. And it’s a way of almost saying, like, the rest of the world can forget about even the most marginalized kinds of people. And yet, this is who Jesus is, he sees each person despite whatever stories they might tell themselves. Whatever story, I was telling myself about being unknown, about just being this forgotten perpetual foreigner person, you know, that I’m seen, that I’m known, that I’m loved, and I’m celebrated.

Michele Davis  31:51

Is that something that as a child you were carrying internally, or on your own? Or were you ever in a place where you were talking about this with siblings? Or your parents or that experience? Like, was it more of a … I guess I’m just trying to know both your awareness and who was maybe with you in that moment?

Drew Hyun  32:16

Yes. And it wasn’t something that I was hyper conscious of growing up. I mean, I was conscious of it, but not to a place where I would articulate it or talk about it. You know, for the most part, it was just my brothers. rights. So I have three brothers. And I’m also a twin as well, I can’t remember if I mentioned that in the video as well. But like…

Michele Davis  32:35

You did.

Drew Hyun  32:36

Yes. So like, I think all of our brothers, there was a part of us, for me, also grown up as a twin and as a youngest wanted to stand out in my family. So that’s kind of one [crosstalk], right? The world around us. And so I don’t know if any of my brothers … we didn’t talk about that, like standing out within our family. But we didn’t know that we were different in the schools that we grew up in. And we knew that we were picked on in a significant way. And we knew that, we were constantly just talking about sticking together. Feeling like we needed to stick together. So it’s only later and I think it really is.

One of the reasons why we gravitated towards faith was because there was this message, this incredible equalizing message of the gospel, that it’s not based on one’s performance or anything like that. And so I think each one of us, the four of us, we could all look back and talk about, like our experience, as Korean Americans growing up in Los Angeles, or in our own families of origin. And I think we would all say, and again, I don’t want to speak for them. But I would say, that the compelling message of Jesus, and faith and community was really what brought us to a place of compelling belief, not only the merits of faiths, but also like, wow, the Gospel can really bring people from very different backgrounds, and give them a sense of strength and identity, that’s not self-actualized, but really comes from a transcendent God who loves us.

So I wouldn’t say that the articulation of the alienation as like an Asian American. I don’t think that my 4th, 5th, 6th grade, 7th grade mind could have said all those things, it’s only now looking back and seeing why were we so attracted to Jesus. And I think that had a significant part in it.

Michele Davis  34:51

Makes a lot of sense. I think, in the 80s, I’m saying this from hearing stories from my husband, who is half Japanese, his mom is an immigrant, his dad grew up in America. And there was always a pressure to kind of he wanted to assimilate, you know, but never feeling successful that kind of always felt like this. Okay, I’m just like constantly hitting a wall … Yes, I think it’s maybe relates to what you said about that feeling of being like the perpetual foreigner, like never actually making it in? What do you wish that? Like, okay, if you could go back and say something to all of these kids that you’re surrounded by, who did not accept you kindly, what would you wish that they would have known about you? Or something that maybe you could say to them? What perspective do you think that you would wish to impart to them? I just asked you to go back in time, and just a bunch of white kids, how to hang out with Asians. Do your best.

Drew Hyun  36:14

I mean, well, it was interesting, because it was mostly … I mean, it was a diverse group, like our high school was maybe, I think it was 15% White, 15% Black, and then 60% Hispanic. I mean, it was a very diverse group. And I think what I would want them to know is that I have a voice, and that I’m here, and when I think about… You know, even the message that I talked about in the video, like, you know, there’s that feeling of when playing pickup basketball, I know that with my own skills, I’m not that great, but I know that my buddy, who is amazing basketball player, whenever he was on my team, just my confidence grew, this moment of like, yes, I’m here, I belong. And I often think of that as like the story of Jesus and God, like, he’s with us. And in those moments of feeling self-doubt, or wondering who I am, or whether I belong, the God of the universe steps onto the court. And it’s almost like, yes, I belong, I’m here.

And I think that’s what I would want folks to know, and obviously, not in an abrasive arrogant way, but just in a way of like, I’m here. I think there was a lot of self-doubt, a lot of pain and anguish and longing to be accepted. And I think being able to say, “Hey! I’m here, I have a voice,” like, would have been very meaningful for me.

Michele Davis  38:14

Yes, that tracks. I imagine that those experiences that you had as a child, have really shaped how you parent today, and also probably how you pastor in New York, and how you interact with your congregants and with the people in your networks. And so what do you think about that idea of having the experience you described of being an immigrant feeling like a foreigner wanting to be seen? How has that shaped your parenting, and your pastoring?

Drew Hyun  39:00

Yes, I mean, I would definitely say, well, as a parent, I think, there’s a great … we want to build a culture. And part of it too in this immigrant home, is very driven, performance driven, achieving so that you can assimilate into American culture. And for me, one of the things my wife and I have talked about is how do we build a culture of blessing? Instead of continually building a culture of challenge, which is what it felt like I grew up with, but how do we build a culture of blessing? And you know, so much of the gospel is working from blessing, not for blessing. And how do we build that culture as parents for our children? And so I think that’s number one as it relates to parenting.

I think number two, wanting to be a place that sees people and wanting to be a place that despite what everyone’s background, and that’s the beautiful thing about the equalizing tendency of the gospel. If the gospel truly is for everyone, then is there a way that we can be a community that lives and flushes that out? I actually think emotionality healthy discipleship has a significant part in this because so much of emotionality healthy discipleship is leading out of brokenness.

So the culture that we’re trying to build as a church community is not like, “Hey, come to our church, because we’re super cool. Hey, come to our church, because we have the best music. Hey, come to our church, because…” And nothing against any of those things, by the way, and I desperately …  I desperately longed to be super cool, you know? Hey, look at how messed up I am in my own life. Look at how I make mistakes and how I’ve anxieties and how I have fears. And look at how I get caught in the comparison trap, even as a vocational minister, you know, like comparing myself to other pastors and churches.

So one of the things that we talked about is leading out of brokenness and humility. So in a city like ours, which so much of it is putting your best foot forward? How can we, that actually equalizes things by not putting our best foot forward, but instead saying, “Hey, look at how messed up I am and how much I need Jesus.” And I think that message is really a message that is inviting as possible to anyone, despite what station they come from, it’s like, “Hey, you don’t have to have it all together. You don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t have to be in this upper echelon of society or be on this upward trajectory. You can simply be a human being, who is hungry, thirsty, broken, tired, weary, and in need of something more.”

Michele Davis  41:59

I think that’s really deep down what all of our hearts lung for.

Drew Hyun  42:04

Yes.

Michele Davis  42:05

And I think that is … Yes, I know, I just personally feel in this conversation, just deeply challenged, also deeply encouraged and hopeful, just like your example of putting it all on the altar, giving a word of God, watching, you walk through brokenness in a beautiful way. I can say like, I am so glad that you have a voice and you’re using it. And I am glad. So thankful. That in face after face of trial, you have been available to the Lord for him to bear fruit through those hard things. So I kind of want to say thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that so much. Because it is really meaningful.

Drew Hyun  43:08

Thanks

Michele Davis  43:09

Drew, I have one last question for you. It’s a question we are asking all of our friends joining us on this podcast, because here on the Created For Podcast, we are trying to create space for people who are trying to find their place in God’s journey. And then God’s story in how they were uniquely made to know him, belong to Him and live for him. And I’m wondering what might like, for those people listening, who want to take their next step, and figuring that out? What invitation or challenge do you feel that you would like to lay out for those listeners?

Drew Hyun  43:51

Yes. You know, that comment I made about, I think other religious systems and even secular systems. Basically, we work for blessing. That’s what we do. We try to earn things. But the story of God, through Jesus has been, we work from blessing. And just that people would know that they are dearly loved. And that from that place, that it would elicit a kind of joy, a kind of purposefulness, you know, that would be my dream for anyone who’s listening or watching and I think that the communities of faith, I think, the work that Cru does, and so many other churches and organizations have pioneering communities of faith where people can work from blessing, I think is a beautiful thing because I need the reinforcements of communities around me that continue to point out and encourage that I do have a voice, that I do matter. And that continue to point out and say, like, “Drew, I think you’re being full of yourself as well at times.”

I think we need all of those things. And so I think, to live that out in the community, I think would be one of the most beautiful things. And so I would just say, to get as involved as one can and connecting and growing and serving in a movement in a community, in a Cru ministry and house church movement, or whatever it might be, I think would be the best next step.

Michele Davis  45:34

Look! I’ve been in full time ministry for 20 years. And I can attest to how easy it is to succumb to that pressure to look like you have it all together, which for the record, I don’t, I don’t have it all together, and praise God for that. And praise God for Drew’s words today for you, and for me, that we can simply be human beings who are hungry, thirsty, broken, tired, weary, and in need of something more. And we can be those things because Jesus is something more and available to us.

Created For is hosted and produced by Cru. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate or review it wherever you listen. For more resources to continue your journey to living out your impact. Check out the show notes on our website cru.org/createdfor and follow us on Instagram @_createdfor.

Thanks for listening.