Julie Chang  00:04

You’re listening to the Creative For podcast. We believe that everyone is created to make a unique impact in the world. Join us as we explore everyday lives and how they find their place and God’s story through calling and design. I’m your host, Julie Chang. Eva Ting is the director of events and programming at W83 Ministry Center, the home of Redeemer Westside Church, that also serves as a community and cultural center on the Upper West Side of New York City. Her interests lie in cultivating spaces for community engagement, and designing art experiences and events that invite the public to participate in thoughtful conversations, as well as thoughtful action. She is the founder of Here to Honor, a centralized, curated resource hub, providing training, tools, and services for end of life needs and grief support. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in English, Bachelor of Science in Journalism from Boston University, and a Master of Arts in Visual Arts Administration from New York University. In this episode, Eva shares about her calling in cultivating community, and the importance of being more human.

Julie Chang  01:13

And welcome to the Created For episode. Today my guest is Eva Ting. Eva, welcome to the podcast.

Eva Ting  01:22

Hey, Julie. Thanks for having me.

Julie Chang  01:25

Yeah, I’m so glad that you’re here and thanks for giving me your time to be interviewed. Eva, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to our, to our listeners.

Eva Ting  01:34

Sure. My name is Eva Ting, and I live in New York City, in Manhattan. And here in New York, I serve as the Director of Events and Programming for the W83 Ministry Center, which is the home of Redeemer Westside Church, and also serves as a community center and cultural event space for the city at large. And I also started, a start up last year called, Here to Honor, and that’s focused on providing funeral planning and grief support resources. So it’s a curated collection of different vendors and service providers, and also providing personalized services and resources for people who might need it. So that’s kind of what I do here in New York, and I’ve been here for almost 10 years.

Julie Chang  02:25

Oh, fantastic. So tell me, Eva, how did you end up getting into this whole cultural space, and then moving from there to the Here to Honor? Tell me your journey in that.

Eva Ting  02:36

Yeah, it’s, uh, it was definitely not planned. Nothing I’m doing now was what I envisioned like, 20 years ago. After…

Julie Chang  02:46

Nothing we ever do is ever planned, I think . . . .

Eva Ting  02:47

Right? I don’t even remember, I think the things I wanted to do 20 years ago, I look back now, and I’m like, “Oh, yeah, none of that worked out. So, cool.” Yeah. Yeah, after college, I had the opportunity to go to China. So the story kind of kind of started in, in China, I guess. I had been to China before on some short term missions trips. And after college, through my work opportunity I had, through my work, I had this opportunity to go to China for a couple of weeks. And it was on that trip that I, sort of, felt this call, this pull, to spend more time there. And I actually really resisted that, I really fought it because I was like, “Oh, so predictable. Chinese American going to China, you know?” So I sort of fought it. [vocalizations] But the, the call was really strong. And after praying about it, and just really humbling myself to, to really lean into that call, I accepted it and I went. And my, my deal with God was that I would give him one year. I would give him one year to be in China and to do whatever it is that I’m supposed to do. But that ended up being nine years. And throughout those nine years . . . .

Julie Chang  02:54

Oh my goodness.

Eva Ting  04:15

Yeah, so you know, be careful the deals you make with God. So the, through the nine years, I had opportunities to do a lot of different things. And, sort of, one of them was working with this art gallery that had started up, that was working with a lot of contemporary craft, Chinese craft, modern craft artists, but also providing a space for different events like jazz concerts, and talks, and partnering with nonprofits. So I ended up working in that space, even though I had no background in visual arts or gallery business. But I learned a lot and kind of through that, through that work, I discovered the field of visual arts administration, and realized that I loved working in this sort of event space that brings community together. So that was kind of my first experience of what it’s like to intentionally work in space that brings people together, people of different backgrounds, and provides a point of conversation, and connection, and community for people. And that was what I was really drawn by. And the fact that it could be, you know, that, that art could be such a big part of that was also really interesting to me. So from there I decided to pursue graduate studies, and came back to the states, and came to New York, to go to NYU, to study Visual Arts Administration.

Julie Chang  05:53

Oh. . . .

Eva Ting  05:54

Yeah, so that’s kind of, kind of the the journey to bring me to New York, and then kind of through arts administration, other opportunities to work in these spaces of community kind of opened up. But yeah, so even though my background wasn’t in art, it was some friends who had started this art gallery, and they were honestly just looking for somebody who had some strong administrative skills to help them get some stuff started. So that was really how I kind of came into that position with them. But then through that, you know, kind of realized, “Hey, I actually really like arts administration, and I’m good at it.” The other aspect was the gallery was started with this vision in mind of, you know, of having faith really integrated into it. So even though I wasn’t, you know, like, blatantly like, evangelizing or anything, we wanted to create a space where these spiritual conversations and connections to faith could happen organically. And so it was also that kind of, sort of vision that was also really appealing to me, because it was such an intentional integration of faith.

Julie Chang  07:03

Sounds like a really fun job, to like, . . .

Julie Chang  07:06

look at art and then to talk about deep things. Like, that is something I just love to do is look at things that are artistic, even watching a movie, and then talking about how it all streams together, and like the levels of depth that take place with it. So tell me about this, like how you ended up moving into this Here to Honor, starting your other, your basically side job, side business, or what is that, exactly?

Eva Ting  07:06

It really was.

Eva Ting  07:33

Yeah, it’s kind of a side, side project right now, side gig. But, um, yeah, so how I moved into that is, again, you know, very much unexpected. But, after I graduated from graduate school, I worked in public art in New York for a while. And I kind of, I was in a really great position, working with public art in Times Square. It was really fun, and I was really enjoying it. But it was also, I think I also got a little burned out, because it was a lot of work. And, you know, I was kind of, at that point, kind of interested in exploring other opportunities. And so, I heard about a position at Redeemer to help run events at the space that they had on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. So I ended up applying for that position. And then there was some transitions that happened, you know, when I came on board. So long story short, I ended up becoming the director in a very short period of time. And so, through that position of working with not just the congregation, but also neighbors and other people from the broader New York Community, there are a lot of different events that we would do. And I found myself as, kind of, the default memorial service contact person. And it was really interesting because, you know, Redeemer is a very large church, they have multiple congregations. But it’s not a very, I mean, I guess, by New York City standards, it’s like, not a very old church, when you think of all the other churches that have been here, like for years, right? It’s like a church that’s like, maybe 30 years old now. So um, in terms of, you know, having congregants who were aging and then passing away, like, there wasn’t really a lot of that. But then when I came on board, I think, kind of just, it just so happened during that season, we just kind of saw more of that. And because there was this building that was fairly new, that we were now using as this event space, you know, there was more inquiries coming in of, “Hey, we’d like to hold a memorial service, you know. We’d like to do a funeral.” And there, and that was just something that Redeemer didn’t do a whole lot of before. And so it was really interesting to kind of be part of shaping those policies and protocols and how that works. And at the same time being the point person, helping all these individuals. And I, you know, I had never worked with funeral planning or anything before, and so when I first started working with these individuals, it was more just trying to get the events logistics, you know, you know, kind of, “How many people, you know? Are flowers being delivered? Is there, like, a reception and what does that involve?” And then I sort of realized that, with funeral planning, it’s such a different beast, you know. Most people, it’s not like a wedding where you have like a Pinterest board, and you’re like, planning it for months, or even years, right? Like, very few people, I think, have like a funeral Pinterest board.

Julie Chang  10:40

Yes.

Eva Ting  10:41

So, so it’s, it’s this thing, I realized that, you know, most people are very unprepared, they’re obviously, you know, in grief, so there’s a lot of emotions involved.  There’s a lot of, you know, processing happening. They have a lot of decisions to make. There’s so much that is involved after someone passes away, and all the things you have to take care of. So they’re really overwhelmed. You know, most funerals happen with such a short time limit, like it’s usually a week or two, that you have to pull everything together. And so I sort of, in the process of working with these individuals, I kind of started creating my own resources and go to lists, because I was getting kind of the same questions and running into the same challenges, even though all these, you know, situations were really different. So kind of from there, I started thinking, “I bet this is something that other people would find helpful too”. Because, out of the, you know, almost 20 families I’ve worked with, I’ve realized, like, “Oh, like this is a recurring thing, just in this small sample size. So I imagine this could be helpful for other people”. So that kind of launched the idea of creating some sort of resource that would be central, and would be able to, kind of a “one stop shop”, if you’re looking for resources, articles, you know, just connecting with funeral homes, etc. Like anything you might need to help plan a funeral memorial service. So it was very, it was actually just out of practicality, I think, and also out of deep empathy for what people were going through. And this is something that we all have to go through. So it was this question of if, you know, this is something we all have to experience, how do we kind of, you know, make this process a little easier, because it’s already so difficult and so, so complicated?

Julie Chang  12:44

Yeah, I mean, my father just passed away a year ago April, during COVID. And that was something he never talked about. He never talked about what he wanted for his funeral service or celebration of life. We actually had to make a decision, are we going to call it a funeral? Are we going to call it a celebration of life? The nursing home that he was, the assisted living home he was living in, I guess, they advised my sister with cremation places, but we didn’t, we didn’t know, we didn’t think about it. And for a long time, my family was sitting around going, we were all, my siblings and my mother and I were sitting, going, “What, what should we do? Like, what, what are, where will we bury him? What, and I mean, it’s been over a year. And finally, this July, we’re going to spread his ashes, but it’s taken a long time to make that decision.

Eva Ting  13:36

Wow, yeah.

Julie Chang  13:36

Because, the, I mean, negative that he passed away, but the, I guess one of the positives of COVID, of people not gathering together is you have a lot of time to make that decision. But . . .

Eva Ting  13:47

Right.

Julie Chang  13:47

It would have been helpful if we had someone like you in our court to say,  “Hey, here’s some suggestions that I’ve compiled and have figured out through the time”.

Eva Ting  13:53

Yeah.

Julie Chang  13:54

I have a couple more questions, Eva. What, what drew you to just stick it out, like to continue to work with people in, in this realm of funeral services, and death, and dying, basically? Yeah.

Eva Ting  14:13

Well I think, um, yeah, cuz it’s not something that I ever imagined gravitating towards. But I think it was, honestly, over time, seeing how the things I care about, you know, my personality, the way that God has made me, kind of all came together in a way that made this feel like a good fit. So what I mean by that is, you know, I never imagined I would end up in arts administration. And I ended up in this field that I loved, working with artists and basically, you know, reimagining how things can be, right? And bringing visions and dreams and ideas into the world, and helping artists do that. And I see myself really as, as, as an administrator, I really think that is, you know, something that God has called me to be because I like to be organized. I live by my Google Calendar. I love walking into a situation where things feel maybe a little messy or chaotic, and then figuring out how to create structure and systems and, kind of, clean it up. I love working with artists because I’m so inspired by how they think, and what they’re able to create. But you know, I want to help, I want to support them by doing the logistics and the admin. work and helping to bring their dreams to fruition. So there’s something about that, that and even like, kind of in this realm right now, with end-of-life and death care, there’s a lot of needs, and it’s not a very straightforward process sometimes. There’s a lot of great vendors and service providers that exists in this field. But I think it’s, it’s, it can often feel hidden because you don’t, you know, you don’t get to it until you need it. So even the challenge of how do you make this information more accessible for people? Like, I like that idea of that challenge from like an administrator point of view. I think also, I think the way I sort of always gravitate towards, I think the edges of, you know, of community and, and always wondering how to bring people in. So even through art, even through my work at the gallery in Shanghai, through my work right now at Redeemer space, there’s this constant sort of desire to figure out, “How do you bring people in? How do you sort of make the boundaries that separate us more porous, you know, so there’s more of this going in and out and having a space of hospitality and connection.” And so even in thinking about end-of-life care, it is, it is the one thing that all of us will go through, the one thing that is, you know, besides birth, that we will all actually experience. But we’re not always great at really walking with people, you know, through that. Through grief, I think this year has shown us with a pandemic, like, you know, how, how important it is to grieve well, and to walk with people through grief well. And we’re not really good at it, I think collectively, so how do we create a community, and you know, an environment where we are able to do that better, where we bring people in, where we are connected. And so even with Here to Honor, the sort of, this is a new realization, the last couple of months of, you know, of really focusing on cultivating community. And so even the direction I’m taking Here to Honor for the future is, is really in creating education, training in the community context. Helping churches be more trained, helping, you know, members of community feel more equipped, and comfortable with just not the things they have to do for themselves, but how to walk with other people through it. Because at the end of the day, like that’s what we need, we need these relationships. So I’ve always gravitated towards like community, and relationship building, and people. And this, to me, feels like the one thing that kind of unites us, you know, and in a society where things feel very divisive right now, the one thing that is common for all of us is that we’re all going to die and we’re mortal. So how can we maybe rally against that one common experience, and find ways to connect and support, and like, really love one another better through that? So that’s kind of what I think, what really draws me to this is that, it is so universal, and the needs are so like, important and necessary around it.

Julie Chang  14:16

Yeah, I mean, just even the theme of the podcast, of finding your place in God’s story. It’s like God’s story has, is encompassing of many things, and part of finding ourselves in the story is the part of death and dying and that is, and, and community, those two aspects are still imperative. What are some things that you discovered on your journey of helping people process through how to cultivate community in the space of grief and in the space of death? What are some findings that you’ve discovered? And how did you discover these things?

Eva Ting  19:36

I think particularly around grief and how we support one another in grief. Like that’s really been at the forefront of my mind, and how we can do that better. And I think a lot of it really just comes down to empathy and making space for people. Making space for ourselves making space for others. But really, that is something that needs to be like really cultivated. It’s not a switch that you can turn on, you know, it’s not like a 10-step program that you go through and now you know how to deal with grief. Like there’s, it’s just such a, it’s so much more, it’s so much deeper and so much more nuanced than that. So really, it’s not about just learning skills. I think it’s really about the people that we are becoming, you know, and the kind of people that we can be, the, the kind of attention and presence that we offer other people, the, the decentering of ourself, that’s actually really important when it, when it’s about, cuz it’s not about me, you know, it’s about me feeling good, because I helped you. That’s not very helpful. So like, you know, what does it look like to decenter ourselves so we can make space for other people? So I just, I think what’s been fascinating is just in learning about, you know, what, what we need when we are facing death, and, you know, and, and processing grief, or helping others supporting others in grief, it’s, it’s really about being more human. Like, it’s really about being more who we are intended to be, you know?

Julie Chang  21:11

Expand on that, what do you mean?

Eva Ting  21:13

Well, I think it just means it’s not about finding solutions, or, so I’ll admit, when I first entered, when I first launched Here to Honor, my initial thought was, “There’s got to be a way to develop a better app, or service, or product, right?” There’s got to be a way, and I think there’s definitely room for that, I think there’s definitely room for technology to help, you know, with the needs. But what I, what I’ve realized in the last couple of months, through conversations and interviews, and you know, working with different people and talking with different people, is that you can have the greatest technology in the world, but if you don’t know how to have empathy, if you don’t know how to make space for someone, if you don’t know how to like, give your attention to someone and help them feel safe, like none of that technology is going to be that effective.

Julie Chang  22:04

Technology is the opposite of empathy, [in computer voice] “We are here to, here for you.” Like a robot talking. Yeah, I can see that.

Eva Ting  22:13

You know, it’s like, it’s I think a lot of it is about, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of getting at the heart of what relationships are meant to be, and how we can support one another, through one of the most devastating things we have to go through, which is, you know, losing someone we love. Right? And so, so just, so I think that the, the importance of those, of that relational strength, the importance of the web of support that we should have in community, like, it just all comes back to, I think, what it, like, it’s what it really means to be human. And to be more fully who we’re supposed to be so that we can, like live well, and also, you know, honestly die well, right? And grieve well, like that’s, that’s really at the heart of it. So it’s just, I think it’s like being, you know, being human, what does it mean to do that, and not about finding solutions, or strategies, or products, or services.

Julie Chang  23:16

Eva, I’m really curious about if you have a story, you mentioned that you interviewed people and talked to many people, is there a story or interview that stuck out to you specifically?

Eva Ting  23:27

Yeah, there were a couple interviews, where, you know, the, their experience of planning the funeral for their loved one was actually really positive, and really beautiful. Because I think it was, you know, out of the, I did 10 interviews, and out of the 10, I would say the majority, you know, everything worked out, but there was a lot of stress. There was a lot of stress, there was a lot of tension, there were family members who couldn’t agree on the same things, you know, trying to find, you know, a good funeral home that they trusted, like, there was just a lot of stress and just sort of, yeah, a lot of, it was just really challenging. But two, remember two of the stories that stood out, it was the most beautiful, like, I mean, it was still, obviously, grief is still there. There’s still some level of anxiety and stress, of course in doing all this. But as far as, like, as perfect as you could get in terms of the experiences, like these two stories, stories stood out. And the reason why they had such a positive experience was because of the web of support and trust that they had in the relationships that were helping them. So for example, one story, the woman’s mother, who was elderly, passed away. And she, she kind of had to get her body from, kind of the, you know, nursing home area that she was staying in, like across state lines back to their hometown where she was going to be buried. And her best friend is married to a funeral home director. And so there was just like, he just took care of everything. And she trusted him. And once they were in the hometown, it was like the church they grew up in, and you know, the pastor. So it’s just like, everybody knew each other. Everyone knew what to do. There was trust, and it just happened beautifully. And the celebration was beautiful, and how the family came too. So that was really interesting. And then the other story, my friend’s father passed away. And again, it was in this town where they grew up, this church that he had been part of for decades. And so, again, the one funeral home in town that everybody knew, and everybody trusted, and who knew everybody, and just how that came. So there was definitely something there of just like being known, and having people who know what to do, but then also having that level of trust, you know, was really what made the difference. And they didn’t have to worry about as much.

Julie Chang  26:06

So almost like people taking off, like carrying the load together, the burden together.

Eva Ting  26:11

Yeah, yeah.

Julie Chang  26:11

And being willing, like a, maybe what I’m hearing from you is, one thing that makes a funeral service a beautiful thing is when there’s trust involved. When we’re able to just let go of all the major details in the midst of grief and allow other people to carry certain responsibilities. And. . . . is that what you are saying?

Eva Ting  26:31

Yeah, I think that’s a good way that you put it, like kind of, kind of sharing the burden together, you know. There’s a collective, there’s like a collective sharing of the burden, a collective, like entering into the mourning and the grief together. And kind of, you know, also collectively, like celebrating the life together, but there’s a shared responsibility and a sense of, you know, it’s not just up to me to like, make all these decisions, and, and work with people who didn’t know this person or didn’t know what, you know, what he wanted, or what I wanted, like, it’s a more shared experience.

Julie Chang  27:10

Love that. Is that what you mean by cultivating community, then?

Eva Ting  27:15

Yeah, great. Yeah, yeah, I think that, I think, um, you know, this idea of calling, I think we have our individual calling, and we have our collective calling, you know. And so sort of, at a personal level, right, the personal calling, there’s all these questions, especially when I was younger, of like, “What is God calling me to do?’ Like, there’s this one perfect role that I’m supposed to enter and do, right? But the older I get, the more I realize that personal calling is not about, like finding that perfect job and checking off that box. It’s really more about the person I’m becoming, and what he has put in me, and how am I cultivating that, in a way to live in the fullness of who he’s made me to be?

Julie Chang  27:24

Hmm . . . .

Eva Ting  28:02

You know, so that to me feels like more of a, of a sense of calling than, “What am I supposed to do?” It’s, you know, “Who am I becoming and, and who is he calling me to be with everything that he’s put in me?” And then I think the collective calling is the sense of, “How are we functioning together as a community and as a body? Where are we healthy? You know, and really flourishing and that sense of collective community calling? And where are our blind spots? And where are we weak? And where are we taking advantage of one another, or ignoring the pains and needs of one another?” Because we do have a calling as a community to also live a certain way. And, “How are we, how are we pursuing that? You know, how are we pursuing this collective calling?”

Julie Chang  28:57

It’s good. How, how would you say that you’re, as you’ve been kind of living out your personal calling with community building and increase of empathy and things like that,  how would you say you have personally transformed in the midst of it?

Eva Ting  29:17

That’s a great question. I think . . . .

Julie Chang  29:18

Or maybe, are transforming. You know, you might still be in that. I mean, obviously, you’re all still in the process of being transformed.

Eva Ting  29:24

No, I’ve made it Julie, I’m perfect! So, this interview is over.

Julie Chang  29:29

I was thinking that.

Eva Ting  29:36

That’s such a great question. I think, especially this past year, when I think the pandemic brought out the worst and the best of all of us, you know, I think it was such a pressure cooker for how we are either growing or like, not doing well. And I think, I think in my, in this sort of personal pursuit of calling, it’s really, it’s not about me, which I think is the, the true irony of all this, is that in trying to discern and figure out your calling or my calling, I realized that it’s actually not about me. And it’s not about me in the sense that it’s not about me looking for a certain answer or having a really like, this is who I should be, like, you know what I mean? Like, this is the, the, the “ought and the shoulds”. It’s actually not about that. It’s actually really about hearing the voice of God and letting him shape me and lead me and point out, you know, the things that he’s teaching me and where he wants me to, to smooth out the rough parts, or where he wants me to be challenged. And so it’s actually, I think, you know, the more we, the more I’ve sort of, like, learned about what that looks like, it’s about not having this idea of what I should be doing. And I think part of the reason that I’ve been, you know, continuing in this journey of end-of-life and death care, I have no idea like, I . . . . This is not something I would choose to, like, actively pursue, because it is, it’s a hard thing. It’s a hard thing to talk about, it’s a hard thing to learn and process. But I’m, you know, I’m trying to be more attuned to what the Spirit is saying, “This is what the world needs, this is how I’ve created you, and this is how I’m leading you in this, to use the gifts and the talents, not in the way that maybe you imagined, but in the way that I think is good, and good for you. And good for the world.”

Julie Chang  31:57

Hmm.

Eva Ting  31:57

You know, and so that’s, and so I think it’s sort of that kind of, that, making the focus about me and putting myself in the center of the story and how things should go.

Julie Chang  32:10

Hmm. Yeah . . . .

Eva Ting  32:11

I think that’s just like a patience that needs to be, that needs to be there and a willingness to be surprised, you know. I think so much of, so much of my life and my journey and the things I’ve been a part of, there’s always room for wonder. There’s always you can, you can put all that, you can strategize, you can like, do all the, and you should, you should do the work. Do the work, you know. Don’t just show up and be like, “Okay, God, whatever!” Like, do, like, I feel like it’s important to do the work to be prepared to do the best that you can, you know, and, and to be attentive to those details that, that need to be there. But there’s always room for wonder, because the Spirit will always do something that is surprising, and not what we expected or planned. You know, and so I think there’s always, it’s really important to, to have space for that. And to keep that in mind, you know, to do the work, but then leave space for wonder and let God do his thing. So it’s, I think it’s unpredictable in that way.

Julie Chang  33:16

Yeah.

Eva Ting  33:17

You know?

Julie Chang  33:17

Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it’s just like, whole, the whole idea of finding your place in God’s story, of getting curious and learning and seeing, like, where you started out as someone who was doing short term missions, to working in an art gallery, to building community, and realizing that that was part of your design, like a passion of yours and a calling. And then hearing about, just how you have this, Here to Honor business that you’re starting and ministry, or I don’t know how you want to identify it, but just allowing that to take space in your life.

Eva Ting  33:19

Yeah.

Julie Chang  33:31

To create and be transformed in cultivating community and transformed lives.

Eva Ting  34:05

Yeah.

Julie Chang  34:06

Such a beautiful thing, Eva.

Eva Ting  34:09

Thanks, Julie.

Julie Chang  34:10

I love your journey. It’s so fun.

Eva Ting  34:12

Thank you. It’s fun. I’ve you know, I think if I look back to what I wanted to do 20 years ago, versus now, I’m so glad for the journey I’ve been on. I mean, I’m sure the journey I had planned would have been fine, too. But this journey is also fun, and the unexpected has actually been then the most fun part of it, I think.

Julie Chang  34:37

Well, you’re doing great work, and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This is a great place for us to wrap it up, I guess.  I just keep on thinking about how, yeah, I love that I could talk to you forever, so. But yeah, thank you so much for giving me your time to sharing your story and sharing your journey with us.

Eva Ting  35:01

Thank you, Julie. It’s always a treat to talk with you. And I’m so glad you’re doing this podcast.

Julie Chang  35:06

Oh, thanks. Thanks.

Julie Chang  35:10

What are you cultivating in the spaces that you’re a part of? Many times we think about individual calling, but Eva brings up the idea of collective calling. How might you be functioning as a community in your collective spaces, as you pursue a collective calling together? Join me next time, as I have a conversation with Jessica Weareda about her process in finding belonging. Created For is hosted and produced by Cru. If you enjoyed this episode then subscribe, rate, or review us wherever you’re listening. For more resources to explore your calling and find your place in God’s story, check out the show notes on our website at Cru.org/CreatedFor, and follow us on Instagram at _CreatedFor.