Michele Davis: [00:00] You are listening to the Created For Podcast. We believe that everyone was created to make a unique impact in the world. Created For is a podcast to explore ideas around purpose, calling and discovering how God is inviting you to influence the world in your own way right now. I’m your host, Michele Davis. Today’s episode is a little different for us. Instead of our normal interview of a thought leader with all the great thoughts, what we’re giving you today is a conversation between three friends. These three friends share a lot of key things in common. All have spent over a decade in nonprofit work and have collaborated together on a variety of projects. They’re also all women of color, and they are all navigating following God when life doesn’t turn out how they had planned. One of those particular areas that they give us a vulnerable glimpse into today is how they have navigated following God as single women when their hopes of being a wife and mother have not yet been realized. Two of these women are very familiar to our Created For listeners. Julie Chang was our dedicated season 2 podcast host and has cohosted several episodes in season 3. She currently works as the Community Growth Manager at Circles, an IT company seeking to foster authentic human connection in the digital world. Emma Tautolo was one of our speakers at our March 2022 Live event and has cohosted with me some really great episodes in season 3. She is a regional director for Athletes in Action’s campus ministry in the Pacific Southwest. New to our audio feed today is Melody Copenny, who’s the editor-in-chief of Cru Storylines, an online publication of Cru that covers national and international stories with the themes of hope and eternity in mind. Together, this conversation has so much wisdom to share. We’re honored to present it to you today.

Julie Chang: [02:00] I’m so excited because we have new guests joining us, and today I have a guest, and her name is Mel Copenny. Mel, why don’t you introduce yourself?

Melody Copenny: [02:11] Hey, Julie! It’s so good to be here! I’m excited to have this time with you guys. So, my name is Melody Copenny — I go by Mel — and I am a writer, creative, editor-in-chief, and a lover of running. I’m actually preparing now for a 51-mile relay race with a group I’m part of called Black Girls RUN!

Julie: [02:31] Ooh, I love it. That’s exciting. Running is not my spiritual gift, so I’m so glad that there are people who enjoy that. Well, also this week, we have a fun person, Emma Tautolo. Emma, hi!

Emma Tautolo: [02:47] Hi, guys! So glad I get to hang out on the podcast today with two of my friends, whom I love and look up to! So this is really great.

Julie: [02:59] We’re so glad that you’re here, Emma. So, ladies, how have you guys been recently?

Emma: [03:08] Oh, man. That shouldn’t be such a complicated question, but you know how when anybody asks you, “So, how are you doing?” You be like, “Oh my gosh, what do I say?” It’s like in a split second I feel like I have to decide, “What am I really gon’ share? Am I gon’ be really honest, or am I just gon’ throw out the, ‘Oh, you know, I’m good?’” So, that’s why I was like, “Oh shoot, what am I gonna say?” But I think I’ve been genuinely good. I think one of the fun things happening in my life is my brother gets married in three weeks, and he’s marrying one of my good friends whom I love, and I hooked them up, so it’s really fun. And so it’s really exciting for our family, and then at the same time, we lost our mom three and a half years ago, and so it’s also a season of, like, our grief is pouring out in some hard ways, just to think of having a wedding without our mom. So, we’re good, and we’re sad, you know? It’s a season of a lot of grief and a lot of joy. So, yeah.

Julie: [04:21] Yeah, that is a tense — like, the dichotomy of the joy and the grief together, it just seems like something a lot of people are experiencing during this time. I’m really sorry, Emma.

Emma: [04:36] That’s okay. Yeah, you’re right, I’m like, “Man, that’s a whole word.” Just like the gratitude and groaning always wrapped together in the same burrito, you know what I’m saying? So … yeah. But…

Mel: [04:54] Thank you for sharing with us.

Emma: [04:56] Yeah… yeah.

Julie: [04:58] How’ve you been, Mel?

Mel: [05:00] I have … I’ve been living. I too find myself doing what Emma said she does, is like, “Okay, do I tell you how I’m really doing, or … do I create a great packaged response?” And being a deep, reflective thinker, I can create something real fast to tell people without having to tell you everything. I will say that I am navigating responsibilities in professional spaces where I work. I’m navigating growth in my life right now and just balancing all the things. What’s been encouraging is continuing to pursue the Lord in the midst of those things and pursuing disciplines that are helpful for me. I’m listening to a podcast — it’s more of a hearing Bible podcast that Truth’s Table provides, and they launched it in January 1st of this year — but every day is a different set of Scripture that someone is reading. And then there’s a prayer of blessing and just … care that’s given at the end of each Scripture reading. And so right now, the reading is working through Job. And so Emma sharing what she shared, and like, “Man, Job, Job, Job.” And even seeing my own journey, I’ve had Job-like seasons in my life, and the reality of the joy and the groanings of life being wrapped together are so real. And just seeing how God meets us in these places, he’s not absent. It may feel like it, but he’s not. He’s very present. He’s whirling, he’s leaning in. And so, I’m finding more of myself in these disciplines: listening to the Word, pursuing community with other believers, and trusting God with the responsibilities and the life stuff that I’m living through too right now. So that’s how I’m doing; I think that was an authentic, full answer.

Emma: [07:09] Yeah, that was authentic and full, Mel. Yes it was.

Julie: [07:14] It was so good, Mel, thanks so much. So one thing that is really interesting about the three of us — me, Mel, and Emma — is that we all share a few life experiences because we’re women of color and we are single.

Mel: [07:33] Woo!

Emma: [07:33] Uh-huh.

Julie: [07:34] So, yeah! So personally I’m really excited to have you guys on this podcast, ‘cause as single women we follow Jesus in our single life, and we’re navigating our career and relationships and all that comes in with singleness. So we’re probably all thinking about calling and purpose and even more so because we have to focus on that as single women. I’m really excited to have this conversation ‘cause you guys have a LOT to offer. I’m wondering, as single women, when you hear the word “calling” or “living out your impact,” what comes to mind for you?

Mel: [08:12] Hmm…

Emma: [08:13] Hmm.

Mel: [08:14] That’s a good question. You know, I don’t — and this could be the way that I approach the living that I do — I see my singleness as a part of my journey the way my Blackness is, the way my gender is, the way my curly hair is. It isn’t something, at this point in my season of life, that has this larger presence in my living. Now, in my 20s and my early 30s, I would say it did because I had expectations and assumptions about where I would be at those kinds of benchmarks of life. In terms of marriage, in terms of having children, in terms of other things. And I’ve experienced just a lot of reframing and reconstructing who I am based on the life God has given me. I desire marriage. I want to have a good partnership with a man that loves Jesus as much, if not more, than I do. I want to build a family. But I also recognize that I am still completely a full, whole person right now as a single woman in the ways that I would if I were a married person. And so, “calling” for me isn’t something that I’m looking at through the lens of my singleness; it’s something that I look at through the lens of my relationship with the Lord, and that has been true since I started walking with him more than 20 years ago. And so, really, He frames the way that I see the development and growth of my life, and then there are parts of my life that I think I get to live out aspects of that with him. So, that can be singleness, that can be me running races, that can be the fun times I have with my girlfriends laughing, that can be vacations that I take, that can be me writing and working on projects. It can be a lot of different things, but I see “calling” more so as my living than “How am I living into the life that I have been given and the things that I wanna accomplish?”

Julie: [10:28] Hmm. Right.

Emma: [10:29] That’s good, Mel. ‘Cause I was thinking “calling,” it feels like journeying with God. Because I would say there was a season of my life where I would’ve said, “I feel called to be a mom and a wife.” And I’ve come to this point in my life where I’m in my mid-to-late 30s at this point, and I’m not a mom, and I’m not a wife. And so, it’s like, “All right, God, well, as I’m journeying with you, what are these unique things that you’ve put in my life for me to be a part of, to journey with you in, to go after, to accomplish?” Right? Even yet while I feel like a big thing — I wonder if you guys experience this too — but it’s just these unfulfilled longings. You know, these dreams that feel like, “Okay, are these dreams dead?” They might be, they might not be, but it’s like, “Okay, God, then birth in me the different dreams that you have for this season as I’m not getting to be a mom and not getting to be a wife or —” like you said “ — build a family with a dude. Lord, help me to follow you then in what it is for me in this journey that you want, and Lord, just help me to not be bitter about it.” That’s a big thing, I feel like, with single women — at least for the single women in my life — is we grieve a lot because there’s a lot of, like I said, unfulfilled dreams and longings. And so I’m like, all right, let’s grieve. We’re not about to be these emotionally unintelligent people. But let’s also look towards, like, “God, what are the dreams you have for us? And let’s still dream for the things that we desire, but let’s journey with you as we live into our calling, not as wives and moms, but as whole — ” like you said, Mel “ — whole single women who are fully living out God’s calling in kingdom,” so….

Mel: [12:45] Absolutely. That’s good, Emma. That’s real good.

Julie: [12:49] Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, I think I also think, when I look back in life, it’s like, every few years I have to do a check, right? Because of the family-normative culture that we live in. Just the nuclear family being the priority, versus … you know, I’m an auntie. But I’m not a mother. And I don’t know what that means, so I just remember when my high school friends were all getting married after college, and then they all started having babies, and I’m just like, “All I wanna do is get married and have a baby,” ‘cause I thought I would be doing that and I thought that would create some type of fulfillment in my life, you know? And even last night, my mother made a comment which is in my own family-normative cultural expectation, which is, my friend Dina and I are both single, and my mom says flippantly — and she says this frequently — ”You don’t mature until you’re a mother. You don’t know maturity until you have children and you’re a mother. Because single people are selfish.” She says that, and that’s part of our cultural norm, and it is infuriating to me. And I started to realize that — I don’t know, probably it wasn’t ‘til my mid-30s when I started to realize — I don’t know if it’s because I really desire to be married and have a child, even though companionship would be something that I am always longing for and desire (until I’m ready to be by myself and have some time just watching TV or whatever). But I realized it had nothing to do with the desire to be a mom or the desire to have a partner, but probably it had more to do with the desire to belong and fit in. You know, in my work in Created For, I’ve had an opportunity to talk to a number of people about our calling and purpose and finding our place in God’s story. And one idea that keeps on popping up, as I’ve interviewed many people in metropolitan cities, is the concept of belonging. And, as we all know, I’m tired, and talking to you ladies personally — and I know many friends — we’re all tired. We’re just tired. And we wanna know where we belong. And I’d like to bring that idea into this conversation. As single women of color, what has been your experience navigating belonging? How do you show up and claim, “I belong here in this space where maybe I don’t feel like I belong in the normative spaces?”

Mel: [15:47] Even circling back to the experience you had with your mom and her thoughts on what makes a person mature, and connecting that to how you show up and say “I belong,” I think it’s helpful and — let’s just say it, right? Maturity is in the growth of the person who is living it out and who is growing into maturity. And are there experiences that help shape you and make you more able to show up in the world and be more mature? I don’t know, maybe so. I mean, you can look at a whole lot of things and apply that to those situations. As a single person, I’ve experienced a lot of living that has given me the opportunity to grow and move into maturity, and so I just wanna affirm to single folks out there who might be listening to this that marriage and parenting can be ways that you can grow in maturity, but they can’t be the only defining ways that we look at it because what if you never marry, and what if you do marry but you’re not able to conceive and have a child or you’re not able to be a parent? Are you cut off from maturity? And of course we would say, “No! You’re not!” So I just wanna affirm those who may listen and hear that part to make the frame a bit bigger. And as we’re thinking about belonging and showing up and showing that we belong, I’m finding for myself that what it looks like is for me knowing who I am as I’m in these spaces. So, I’m not looking to the people that are in those rooms to give me identity and validation. I can’t because, one, they may not have the ability and capacity to do that, and two, it’s not their responsibility. Now, I can come into that space and inform them and seek to help them grow and understand who I am, and that can enhance their learning. But as I move in the world, what I’ve learned — and I’m still growing and learning — is that I bring the truth that I belong because I do and because God has called me His own and I’m made in His image. And just that, in and of itself, I carry intrinsic value and worth with me every day that I’m alive on the earth because I belong to him and I’ve been made in His image. And so, that frames everything, and everything comes out of that. As I’m continuing to grow and develop as a woman of color, as a leader in spaces, as a person continuing to grow and use my voice, I’m seeing that lived out in my journey.

Emma: [18:32] Preach, Mel. You preachin’. And can I just say, adding on what you started with, Mel, I’m like, “Listen, I know grown, grown adults who’ve been married for 30 years and got multiple kids, and let me tell you, they’re still some of the most immature people I know.” So kids and marriage does not mean that you’re gonna mature. Maturity comes through growth and intentionality with growth. Through just continuing to develop. You can get married and have kids and never focus on development or growth, and that don’t mean you ‘bout to be mature. So it’s not a guarantee, right? That you get married and have kids and that means you’re gonna mature and all of a sudden become unselfish. I’m like, “Uhh, that’s actually really not it.” And I would just say, Mel, you really hit it on identity, and so that’s why I’m like, “You’re preaching to my soul today.” This is like—we’re preaching to ourselves, but I feel like I’m being encouraged to hear you say that; even though it’s stuff we know, I’m like, “Ugh, that’s what I need to preach to myself everyday,” you know? And I also think, I’m in a women’s group that I’ve been in for the last year, and I’m the only single in it, but here’s what I love about it, is they see the value of me being single just as much as I see the value in them of being moms in different seasons of life. Some of them have super-young kids, some of them have grown kids, and there’s this mutual value, and that’s why I love doing life with this group of women. Because they don’t dominate every conversation with only their kids and marriage. I mean, that’s real life for them, so we do talk about it, but they value just as much of my season of life and the stuff that I’m walking through as a single, which doesn’t often have to do with my kids ‘cause I don’t have any. There’s mutual value, and I feel like it’s right in that identity vein of, “There’s so much value that I get that they see from me and that I also get from being around moms and wives who understand that.” So yeah, I just really appreciate that about this group.

Mel: [21:23] Good. That’s rich living too because we need the benefit in that type of diversity in our relationships, you know, not having these singular experiences where we just are kind of shut off from other people and their journeys. So I love the fact that you have that blessing in your life.

Emma: [21:43] Mhmm, yeah.

Julie: [21:47] Yeah, I love that too. There’s so many things that both of you have said that I am just marinating in right now. I love it! I also keep on thinking about our listeners who, Mel, you identified, that many are probably wanting to be pregnant or have a baby but are unable or there’s something going on where they’re not doing so, and it just makes me think about our identities as — even us as women, we have a uterus, we’ve got the eggs, and they’re not being utilized. What does that mean as women? And then does that make me more female or not female? And just all of those different thoughts and ideas that have come to mind for me personally as my hormones have been changing. But just that whole concept of “My body looks like this and has these functions, but it doesn’t seem like it’s functioning. Am I broken? Who am I? What is my story? What is my purpose?” All of those different things. Do you guys ever think about those questions, or…?

Mel: [23:02] Mhmm. I mean, that’s real talk, you know? And as you were talking about the women who have these parts of our bodies, our ovaries and uteruses and such and such, there are women who don’t have those, and yet they are women. Life has happened, and that’s the thing. That is the thing, okay? Life has happened, and life happens. Things happen to us that we didn’t ask to happen to us, things encounter our stories, you may have some type of condition that causes you to not have full function of these parts of you that make you the woman that God created you to be. And so, in the midst of those things, how do we find that course that keeps us pointed toward the Lord, toward our true anchor, held and wrapped in him in the midst of the things that happen to us and that we have to navigate through? And so, Julie, with your question, I think for myself what I’m processing is, “What does it look like for me to show up in my life in these times?” I think it’s showing up and recognizing, “Okay, this is hard stuff over here, but oh my gosh, there’s so much beauty over here,” you know? And finding the places that are life-giving, continuing to remind myself that roles and experiences and journeys in life are not — they should not be created to define me, and what I mean by that is, my purpose and my living and my joy can’t be rooted in whether I’m a mom or married or single and free, without children. There has to be something deeper at work, because all those things are beautiful, and they give me the opportunity to experience life on this Earth, but God has placed me in a body on this Earth for a reason. And there are parts of this living that go beyond some parts of our lives that often are platformed as higher and more important than — from his perspective, than maybe they should be looked at. And so, as I’m thinking about how I live in the world, I’m considering, “What is it that God is inviting me into in this season and this part of my journey?” I’m 42 and three-quarters, is what I’ve been saying recently, and I’ll hit 43 this summer, and looking forward to that. And with every birthday, for me it’s like, “How do I want to live more embodied in this new year than I did the year before? How do I want to connect more to myself and who God has really created me to be and is inviting me everyday to discover?” That’s what I’m learning about life. There’s discovery in my living ‘cause this life is beautiful, and there’s things about myself I haven’t yet met. And so, becoming more me is finding more of myself in my journey of living. So that’s what I’m processing.

Emma: [26:06] Yes, Mel. It reminds me, one of my best friends out here, she got married in her 30s. I was in her wedding. They just had their first baby 10 months ago, so they have a 10-month-old. But I remember she was telling me, they had a little bit of infertility for a little over a year, and one of the things that she was crying out to God with in a quiet time, she was like, “But God, I feel like you made me for this. I feel like you created me to be a mom.” And then she said, it was one of those moments where the Holy Spirit was like skrrt. And the Holy Spirit was like, “I didn’t make you to be a mom. I didn’t create you for this; I created you to worship me. I made you for worship of me, your God.” And it was in a moment where she was like, “Oh. You are so — ” It shook her back to reality — which is so encouraging for me to hear, where she’s like, being a mom, she loves it, she’s like “It’s really hard,” but she was like, “God made me for worship of himself.” I love it ‘cause she remembers what it was like to be single in her 30s. But I just thought that was profound, of like, “Okay, Lord—” Mel, like what you said, if the pinnacle, the height of calling and purpose is in motherhood, then I was like, “That can’t be true nor biblical,” because all of God’s people, we’re created for a purpose, we’re living into our place in God’s story with or without children, with or without spouses. We’re following in the ways of Jesus, right? We’re following in the ways of the one who never got married and never had kids and yet lived fully into the purpose of the Father. And so, that’s why I’m thankful for friends like that who remind me, “Hey, I’m a mom, and let me tell you, I love it, I’m so thankful, but this is not the pinnacle of my purpose nor my — ” you know? And she knows this, I get frustrated sometimes on social media — and I’m not throwing shade at anyone, this is my own internal stuff — but I get frustrated when you see posts about becoming parents or becoming a mom, that they’re like, “This made sense of — my life finally makes sense,” or like, “This is the best thing God’s ever given me, it’s the — there is no life better than being a mother,” and I’m like, “Really? So does that mean I’m getting like a freshman squad version of life if I never get to become a mother?” But that’s why I’m like — Mel, going back to what you said — I have to walk into every room full, and knowing who I am, and knowing, “Moms can make their little posts about — ” not little, it’s not to demean them, ‘cause I get it. Moms, it is beautiful that you get to be a mother, and I’m so here for it. But I’m like, I can’t let those posts saying, “This is the best thing in life — ” I have to go in fully knowing if I never get to be a mom, guess what? I’ve got the best thing in life that God’s given too, you know? But I’m thankful for friends like one of my best friends, who’s like, “I love being a mom, but you didn’t create me for this; you created me to worship you.” And if you call me to worship you through mothering, or through singleness and through my career, I’m gonna do it in, again, whatever journey God has for you, I’m gonna worship you through it.

Mel: [30:07] Oh yes, absolutely, Emma. Good stuff.

Julie: [30:11] Emma, I’m curious about — basically, you’re kind of an expert on diversity training and competency.

Emma: [30:17] Uhh. Mmm.

Julie: [30:20] And, yeah —

Emma: [30:20] Like I said, I’ve learned from all the experts. That’s what it is.

Julie: [30:24] And so, what are some of the principles that you train people in that could be applied to people who are single?

Emma: [30:30] Hmm … yeah, so one of the things I think I talked about a little bit is — I think a lot of churches do this, and I get why — but churches will do affinity groups. So they’ll do, like, “We’re the Young Moms group. This is the Newlywed group. This is the Singles group.” And I get why people do that, so that people in similar seasons of life can journey together, so it’s not bad to do it all the time. But I think, like my women’s small group, I think something that we don’t do enough, is we throw out the affinity aspect and we say, “Listen, I wanna value living life with different people of different seasons and different stages. I wanna be in a group with the young mom, the young marrieds with a 1-year-old. Or the widower in their 60s. The divorced mom of two grown kids. The single person.” There’s a value of, “I’m doing life with these people in different stages.” And there’s for sure a place for the affinity groups, I get it. Like when you wanna do playdates, when it comes to babysitting … but I think a huge one is, all right, let’s also value, though, the non-affinity groups, and let’s normalize that the single unmarried person can be in a group with a young mom of three kids, and that her problems and her season of life matter too, just as the mom who’s overwhelmed with three kids, right? And that we can both be in it together. So I think normalizing that, it’s another way of how we value the diverse people of God and the diverse seasons of God. And I don’t know if this would be — well, I would say this is more how we teach about mission — but I think to create a space and a culture where singleness is also revered as holy space, just as motherhood is, we need to talk about faith and work. We need to teach a theology of work. We need to teach how doing jobs in our work of all these different — different work, not just missionary work — is participating in God’s mission. Because we need to give a bigger picture of God’s mission, that it’s not just holy work to stay home and raise children and rear a family, but that it’s holy work for me to go into my job and push back against the effects of the Fall and do good work for the common good of our communities. We need to teach that is mission and that is holy participation with the Holy Spirit towards the kingdom of God and not just revere, like I said, being able to stay home and disciple your children as the most holy calling of work. So I’m like, if we’re gonna create space for singles, we’ve gotta rethink mission, and we’ve gotta dignify and “missionalize” — which, I just made that word up — but, “missionalize” —

Julie: [34:09] I like that it sounds like a real word.

Emma: [34:11] “Missionalize” all work. We need to help people rethink their work as mission and participation in God’s kingdom, and so we have to do a better job of teaching that in our churches and in our spaces to have a theology of work. Faith, work, and rest, right? We can’t, because I don’t have kids, and because I don’t have a husband, we can’t let single people think, “Oh, you just should run ‘til your wheels are falling off. You should work, work, work ‘cause guess what? You have more time than anybody. So she as the single should be the one that can stay late, take less vacation time, fill in when people can’t, ‘cause she doesn’t have a family to go home to. She can do it.” And it’s like, no. Faith, work, and rest. We have to also teach our singles, “You don’t have a husband and kids to go home to, and yet you still need deep rest.” ‘Cause I do it, I for sure do it. I get lost in this mentality of, “I have so much time, ‘cause I don’t have to raise kids right now, to invest in my mission and in my work.” And it’s like, no. You need to rest. You need to build margins into your life. You need to build Sabbath more faithfully into your life. And so I think we need to remember that and help form everyone in it, but singles need to be formed in that too. You don’t have to be married with kids to really contend for rest, deep rest, and Sabbath. So … anyway —

Julie: [36:02] I think also, even when you’re saying that, I’m reflecting on just different teams and different groups that I’ve been a part of, and the same message goes for our brothers too. Single men work their butts off, and then on top of it, they’re the ones who usually, at retreats and stuff, sleep on the couch or sleep on the floor and all that kind of stuff, and it’s like, these people also identify they have a place too. There’s a place here, and it’s not about just work, work, work, like you just said. But there is richness in our calling and a richness in our purposes that we’re uniquely built for.

Emma: [36:47] Yeah.

Mel: [36:48] Absolutely.

Julie: [36:50] Yeah, I love it. You guys, I just — this is — I do not wanna end this conversation. It’s so good. I have so many other questions. But, so, I just wanna end with one last question. So, basically the question is, if you had one invitation for our listeners, who some of them are single probably and some of them aren’t, but we’re all asking questions about our purpose and our unique design. So to anyone who’s listening who might be wanting to take a next step relating to discovering more of who God created them to be, what invitation might you have for them?

Emma: [37:38] I think my invitation, it would be — sounds pretty simple, but it would just be to invite people into a life of hope. I feel hopelessness often. ‘Cause I’m like, “Okay, hope in Jesus, hope in when we die and when we’re with Jesus in the restored new humanity.” But I think of the verse, “I believe that I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living,” and I’m like, “Okay, so there is hope for eternity with Jesus, but also what is it like for me to have hope in the land of the living?” So if you’ve been in my house, I’ve got “Hope” signs hanging everywhere, I’ve got “Hope” pillows thrown around the house, I’ve got “Hope” every — because for me, I need to look around and be reminded to hope in the goodness of God. To hope that God’s journey is worth it, and I’m right where I’m supposed to be, and that there is a life of flourishing, even — I wanna be married. I wanna be a mom still. In the back of my head I’m like, “I still feel called to be a mom.” You know, I wanna be married, I wanna be a mom, and yet there’s still a life of flourishing if I don’t get that ever, if I don’t get the opportunity to have that. Or yet, right? I’m like, “Yet, Lord! It’s coming one day!” But there’s God, there’s life of flourishing, there’s a life of wholeness and fullness while I don’t have those things yet. And so, to remind me to hope for it, not just to hope for eternity so it’s like, “I’m just ready for you to come back, Jesus, bye.” Even though I do have that mentality a little bit. But it’s like, “Okay, Lord, help me have hope for today. Hope that your goodness and mercy is with me today. That there’s a life of flourishing and joy and wholeness and fullness, even if it’s meaning that I’m an aunt—” Julie, like you said, “—or that my kids are more spiritual kids, they’re people I’ve led to Christ and mentored on campus, or whatever it is. Lord, give me hope for today to live a life of hope and flourishing for now and not just for eternity but that I would live that now.”

Mel: [40:13] Mhmm.

Julie: [40:13] That’s good. That is so good. Ooh, that’s good. A lot to digest, a lot to think about, a lot to process. Emma, Mel, I’m so thankful that we had to have this conversation together, and I hope and pray that we would all be able to live in hope in whatever our journey brings us. To the power of the Holy Spirit, and to the calling of God, and in our own design, and in our own hearts, the one thing — I love it — that we cannot lose is hope.

Michele: [41:02] Getting to listen in to these remarkable women connect with one another in vulnerability, empathy, and hope is such a gift, isn’t it? What I specifically love and can’t stop thinking about is how they are each modeling a commitment to set their minds, hearts and lives on God to live fully with all of who they are, including their dreams and desires, and are resting in the faith that God is the ultimate fulfillment of everything they want and need. Truly, it is in God that we find what we are created for. Created For is hosted and produced by Cru. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate, or review it wherever you listen. For more resources to continue your journey to living out your impact, check out the show notes on our website, https://www.cru.org/createdfor, and follow us on Instagram @_createdfor. Thanks for listening!